I spoke to Matthew Herbert about the future of popular music and why his love for Missy Elliot is so unsatisfying.
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MH: You know, my next album is a big-band album, recorded with 20 musicians.I've not compromised on any aspect of it, and yet I paid for it allmyself, and we're releasing it ourselves. It's like. I've, I've livedmy life without compromise, so um.
PM: That's fantastic, and I don't think there are many people who can saythat regardless of whether they're independent or or kind ofcommercial sellouts.
MH: Yeah,no, I mean the music industry is full of unhappy artists. Andjust literally like owning everything that you've done is like a hugething for me, you know, it's something that I'm very proud of, thefact that I own everything I've done, you know. That's very rare as well. Very rare.
PM: So,prior to you producing music, you have never really had anyexperience of the record-industry yourself?
MH: I'vekind of had dealings here and there, you know. But it's always been,it's always been a completely unsatisfactory experience, you know.
PM: Yeah...
MH: Ithink so much of the sort of creative industries these days...thedecisions are made by committees. I know, for example, at IslandRecords, there was a time where, in the last couple of years - itmight have changed now - but you couldn't release a record unless themarketing manager had listened to it, you know, and gave an opinion.And it's like, well, since when did marketing people become A&Rpeople. It's all very strange.
PM: I’dlike to know more about your aversion to using existing sounds.
MH: Tome it’s a perfectly logical thing. I don’t understand why IshouMH: You know, my next album is a big-band album, recorded with 20 musicians. I've not compromised on any aspect of it, and yet I paid for it all myself, and we're releasing it ourselves. It's like. I've, I've lived my life without compromise, so um.
PM: That's fantastic, and I don't think there are many people who can say that regardless of whether they're independent or or kind of commercial sellouts.
MH: Yeah, no, I mean the music industry is full of unhappy artists. And just literally like owning everything that you've done is like a huge thing for me, you know, it's something that I'm very proud of, the fact that I own everything I've done, you know. That's very rare as well. Very rare.
PM: So, prior to you producing music, you have never really had any experience of the record-industry yourself?
MH: I've kind of had dealings here and there, you know. But it's always been, it's always been a completely unsatisfactory experience, you know.
PM: Yeah...
MH: I think so much of the sort of creative industries these days...the decisions are made by committees. I know, for example, at Island Records, there was a time where, in the last couple of years - it might have changed now - but you couldn't release a record unless the marketing manager had listened to it, you know, and gave an opinion. And it's like, well, since when did marketing people become A&R people. It's all very strange.
PM: I’d like to know more about your aversion to using existing sounds.
MH: To me it’s a perfectly logical thing. I don’t understand why I should even consider using sounds that have been used before. When I could use any sound in the world, why would I use a sound that my next-door-neighbour has already chosen. Even if I fail, my quest is to be original and that’s my starting point. If it’s a sound that’s already been recorded, then I’m taking five steps back before I take one step forward.
PM: Yeah! Do you ever play to audiences who simply don’t get what you’re up to?
MH: I don’t really know. You need to ask the audiences that. I did a show as Radioboy last year, where I was working with McDonalds and Coca Cola and some other products of society that are destructive forces, and sort of destroying them on stage, and using the sounds of a Big Mac meal to make a live piece of music. And I got asked a lot about what the audience thought about it. And to be honest, it’s not really something that concerns me, in the sense that the music is obvious to me. I’m trying to go about these things in sometimes very obvious ways, sometimes very subtle ways. And you can only do that and hope an audience understands or corresponds or discovers something. I mean you can’t create something that’s easy for an audience. You know – you don’t want to dumb down. I think that’s the problem with a lot of culture.
Take Iraq, for example. George Bush is trying to simplify the situation into one or two instances, saying Saddam Hussein has ignored a particular UN resolution. And yet you look at a country like Israel and you see that Israel has ignored, you know, 30 or 40 resolutions. So it’s not as simple as that. The simple reason for going to war with Iraq is because it’s a political war, for political reasons, with political goals. So, yeah, in terms of an audience, I just do what I do, and try not to make it obtuse. And just hope they get it. I mean that’s all you can do really.
PM: OK. Well, regarding this kind of the dumbing-down that our global culture has been subject to and, and our individual cultures, kind of in the last kind of 10-15 years. Do you think that things are going to get better? Because I mean, it's great to have all these fringe movements that are producing this amazing music, but, at the same time, the mass of people are not hearing that music.
MH: Yeah, but you look at something like Timberland and the Neptunes and stuff, which are having a very big impact on mainstream pop music, certainly in America and England, they're very much using sounds and ideas and aesthetics that have been explored in electronic music for a while. So I do think, if you're doing something good or doing something relevant, then it filters out eventually, you know, even if it comes out sounding a lot different to what it was originally. So, there is room there for a dialogue. Yeah.ld even consider using sounds that have been used before. When Icould use any sound in the world, why would I use a sound that mynext-door-neighbour has already chosen. Even if I fail, my quest isto be original and that’s my starting point. If it’s a soundthat’s already been recorded, then I’m taking five steps backbefore I take one step forward.
PM: Yeah!Do you ever play toaudiences who simply don’t get what you’re up to?
MH: Idon’t really know. You need to ask the audiences that. I did a showas Radioboy last year, where I was working with McDonalds and CocaCola and some other products of society that are destructive forces,and sort of destroying them on stage, and using the sounds of a BigMac meal to make a live piece of music. And I got asked a lot aboutwhat the audience thought about it. And to be honest, it’s notreally something that concerns me, in the sense that the music isobvious to me. I’m trying to go about these things in sometimesvery obvious ways, sometimes very subtle ways. And you can only dothat and hope an audience understands or corresponds or discoverssomething. I mean you can’t create something that’s easy for anaudience. You know – you don’t want to dumb down. I think that’sthe problem with a lot of culture.
Take Iraq, for example. George Bush istrying to simplify the situation into one or two instances, sayingSaddam Hussein has ignored a particular UN resolution. And yet youlook at a country like Israel and you see that Israel has ignored,you know, 30 or 40 resolutions. So it’s not as simple as that. Thesimple reason for going to war with Iraq is because it’s apolitical war, for political reasons, with political goals. So, yeah,in terms of an audience, I just do what I do, and try not to make itobtuse. And just hope they get it. I mean that’s all you can doreally.
PM: OK.Well, regarding this kind of the dumbing-down that our that ourglobal culture has been subject to and, and our individual cultures,kind of in the last kind of 10-15 years. Do you think that things aregoing to get better? Because I mean it's great to, it's great to haveall these kind of fringe movements that are producing this amazingmusic, but at the same time the mass of people are not hearing thatmusic.
MH: Yeah,well, but you look at something like Timberland and the Neptunes andstuff, which are having a very big impact on mainstream pop music,certainly in America and England. They're very much using kind ofsounds and ideas and aesthetics that have been explored in electronicmusic for a while. So I do think, if you're doing something good ordoing something relevant, then it filters out eventually, you know,even if it comes out sounding a lot different to what it wasoriginally. So, there is room there for a dialogue. Yeah.
LESS
MH: You know, my next album is a big-band album, recorded with 20 musicians.I've not compromised on any aspect of it, and yet I paid for it allmyself, and we're releasing it ourselves. It's like. I've, I've livedmy life without compromise, so um.
PM: That's fantastic, and I don't think there are many people who can saythat regardless of whether they're independent or or kind ofcommercial sellouts.
MH: Yeah,no, I mean the music industry is full of unhappy artists. Andjust literally like owning everything that you've done is like a hugething for me, you know, it's something that I'm very proud of, thefact that I own everything I've done, you know. That's very rare as well. Very rare.
PM: So,prior to you producing music, you have never really had anyexperience of the record-industry yourself?
MH: I'vekind of had dealings here and there, you know. But it's always been,it's always been a completely unsatisfactory experience, you know.
PM: Yeah...
MH: Ithink so much of the sort of creative industries these days...thedecisions are made by committees. I know, for example, at IslandRecords, there was a time where, in the last couple of years - itmight have changed now - but you couldn't release a record unless themarketing manager had listened to it, you know, and gave an opinion.And it's like, well, since when did marketing people become A&Rpeople. It's all very strange.
PM: I’dlike to know more about your aversion to using existing sounds.
MH: Tome it’s a perfectly logical thing. I don’t understand why IshouMH: You know, my next album is a big-band album, recorded with 20 musicians. I've not compromised on any aspect of it, and yet I paid for it all myself, and we're releasing it ourselves. It's like. I've, I've lived my life without compromise, so um.
PM: That's fantastic, and I don't think there are many people who can say that regardless of whether they're independent or or kind of commercial sellouts.
MH: Yeah, no, I mean the music industry is full of unhappy artists. And just literally like owning everything that you've done is like a huge thing for me, you know, it's something that I'm very proud of, the fact that I own everything I've done, you know. That's very rare as well. Very rare.
PM: So, prior to you producing music, you have never really had any experience of the record-industry yourself?
MH: I've kind of had dealings here and there, you know. But it's always been, it's always been a completely unsatisfactory experience, you know.
PM: Yeah...
MH: I think so much of the sort of creative industries these days...the decisions are made by committees. I know, for example, at Island Records, there was a time where, in the last couple of years - it might have changed now - but you couldn't release a record unless the marketing manager had listened to it, you know, and gave an opinion. And it's like, well, since when did marketing people become A&R people. It's all very strange.
PM: I’d like to know more about your aversion to using existing sounds.
MH: To me it’s a perfectly logical thing. I don’t understand why I should even consider using sounds that have been used before. When I could use any sound in the world, why would I use a sound that my next-door-neighbour has already chosen. Even if I fail, my quest is to be original and that’s my starting point. If it’s a sound that’s already been recorded, then I’m taking five steps back before I take one step forward.
PM: Yeah! Do you ever play to audiences who simply don’t get what you’re up to?
MH: I don’t really know. You need to ask the audiences that. I did a show as Radioboy last year, where I was working with McDonalds and Coca Cola and some other products of society that are destructive forces, and sort of destroying them on stage, and using the sounds of a Big Mac meal to make a live piece of music. And I got asked a lot about what the audience thought about it. And to be honest, it’s not really something that concerns me, in the sense that the music is obvious to me. I’m trying to go about these things in sometimes very obvious ways, sometimes very subtle ways. And you can only do that and hope an audience understands or corresponds or discovers something. I mean you can’t create something that’s easy for an audience. You know – you don’t want to dumb down. I think that’s the problem with a lot of culture.
Take Iraq, for example. George Bush is trying to simplify the situation into one or two instances, saying Saddam Hussein has ignored a particular UN resolution. And yet you look at a country like Israel and you see that Israel has ignored, you know, 30 or 40 resolutions. So it’s not as simple as that. The simple reason for going to war with Iraq is because it’s a political war, for political reasons, with political goals. So, yeah, in terms of an audience, I just do what I do, and try not to make it obtuse. And just hope they get it. I mean that’s all you can do really.
PM: OK. Well, regarding this kind of the dumbing-down that our global culture has been subject to and, and our individual cultures, kind of in the last kind of 10-15 years. Do you think that things are going to get better? Because I mean, it's great to have all these fringe movements that are producing this amazing music, but, at the same time, the mass of people are not hearing that music.
MH: Yeah, but you look at something like Timberland and the Neptunes and stuff, which are having a very big impact on mainstream pop music, certainly in America and England, they're very much using sounds and ideas and aesthetics that have been explored in electronic music for a while. So I do think, if you're doing something good or doing something relevant, then it filters out eventually, you know, even if it comes out sounding a lot different to what it was originally. So, there is room there for a dialogue. Yeah.ld even consider using sounds that have been used before. When Icould use any sound in the world, why would I use a sound that mynext-door-neighbour has already chosen. Even if I fail, my quest isto be original and that’s my starting point. If it’s a soundthat’s already been recorded, then I’m taking five steps backbefore I take one step forward.
PM: Yeah!Do you ever play toaudiences who simply don’t get what you’re up to?
MH: Idon’t really know. You need to ask the audiences that. I did a showas Radioboy last year, where I was working with McDonalds and CocaCola and some other products of society that are destructive forces,and sort of destroying them on stage, and using the sounds of a BigMac meal to make a live piece of music. And I got asked a lot aboutwhat the audience thought about it. And to be honest, it’s notreally something that concerns me, in the sense that the music isobvious to me. I’m trying to go about these things in sometimesvery obvious ways, sometimes very subtle ways. And you can only dothat and hope an audience understands or corresponds or discoverssomething. I mean you can’t create something that’s easy for anaudience. You know – you don’t want to dumb down. I think that’sthe problem with a lot of culture.
Take Iraq, for example. George Bush istrying to simplify the situation into one or two instances, sayingSaddam Hussein has ignored a particular UN resolution. And yet youlook at a country like Israel and you see that Israel has ignored,you know, 30 or 40 resolutions. So it’s not as simple as that. Thesimple reason for going to war with Iraq is because it’s apolitical war, for political reasons, with political goals. So, yeah,in terms of an audience, I just do what I do, and try not to make itobtuse. And just hope they get it. I mean that’s all you can doreally.
PM: OK.Well, regarding this kind of the dumbing-down that our that ourglobal culture has been subject to and, and our individual cultures,kind of in the last kind of 10-15 years. Do you think that things aregoing to get better? Because I mean it's great to, it's great to haveall these kind of fringe movements that are producing this amazingmusic, but at the same time the mass of people are not hearing thatmusic.
MH: Yeah,well, but you look at something like Timberland and the Neptunes andstuff, which are having a very big impact on mainstream pop music,certainly in America and England. They're very much using kind ofsounds and ideas and aesthetics that have been explored in electronicmusic for a while. So I do think, if you're doing something good ordoing something relevant, then it filters out eventually, you know,even if it comes out sounding a lot different to what it wasoriginally. So, there is room there for a dialogue. Yeah.
PM: You’ve said that the context for Herbert is house music, moving in the direction of jazz. I’m interested as to whether you think house as a genre has got any life left in it?
MH: (laughs) Well Puff Daddy’s just about to release a house record, isn’t he? So, I don’t know. I still have a feeling that it’s going to become important again, whether we like it or not, even if it's a sort of bastardised version of it. But I think house music as a form – a kind of heavy repetitive bass drum – that’s a very cross-cultural, universal phenomenon. I think that’s something that speaks to people across a whole lot of cultures.
And so, I think it will always exist. Whether it’s important as a political form or even as an original musical form remains to be seen. Because there is very rarely any context for house music. It’s just like, happy to be a soundtrack to dark nights in clubs and flashing strobes. It doesn’t really exist in a political or social context, you know. There aren’t any anti-war pieces of house music, for example, or anti-George Bush songs. It’s all very “love all, let’s-come-together-and-dance” and all that kind of thing.
PM: So do you think we’re going to see another kind of original musical movement in the next few years, or do you think we’ll be subject to revisions and revivals?
MH: I think so. It’s very difficult to tell. But I do think that music has got very, very stuck in its genre, and it’s become very commodified, and you know, record sales are dropping off a huge amount, partly, I think, because records are just not as good as they should be or as they used to be.
Think about the art of an album, for example. Think about Hunky Dory by David Bowie or Pet Sounds by Bryan Wilson. Or someone like Massive Attack, who has, in the past at least, spent a lot of time actually creating an album, a listening experience.
Whereas the modern way of doing things isn’t as satisfying. Like R&B, like Missy Elliot, who has great singles and then the albums are just rushed through and don’t have any consistency to them. And there are hip-hop albums that have got like 25, 27, 30 tracks on them. So I think there’s definitely room for much more considered album work. I’d hope that that, in turn, would lead to more considered musical forms and new ideas. Whether that materialises or not remains to be seen.
PM: Do you, do you think there's a sense of composition that is missing?
MH: Certainly I do. I mean, I think that it's become all very formulaic in terms of songwriting, and there's a lot of covers, particularly in pop music. But I mean, certainly in electronic music, you know, one of the great liberations of electronic music was you didn't have to know how to play an instrument, yeah, or write a piece of music to actually create a piece. Whereas we've had that liberation now for over 10 years, and I think the time has come now for...People are tired of listening to people that don't know how to play their instruments. I think electronics needs to have that input from live musicians and live performers, and traditional understandings of music to move forward. And I think that live music needs to embrace a lot more of the sort of aesthetics of electronic music if it's going to not become just ghettoised and, you know, playing in restaurants. Having a corner of a restaurant. Yeah.
PM: Genres have become so fragmented over the last 10 years. Do you think it's difficult to actually extract the market, from the record company's point of view?
MH: Not necessarily. In the sense that record companies are so quick if something's a success, you know, the business model for any business basically is if something's a success, then it should be replicated, you know. Like, if someone buys a can of Coca-Cola because of the way it tastes, then they want it to taste exactly the same the next time they drink it. Big businesses treated music in the same way, so that if someone like - I don't know if you have Avril Lavigne over there?
PM: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
MH: Now suddenly all the record labels are all looking for Avril Lavigne, you know, some sort of 17-year-old rock skater girl. That's suddenly a market. And it's at exactly that point where record companies should be looking to completely the opposite, to my mind, you know. So, I think the record companies are reaping what they're sowing. And if more people just got on and did exactly what they wanted, then I think there'd be a lot more variety.
PM: Yeah, yeah, I know personally, I find it hard to find new music now. Apart from a few things that get given to me, I’m going back to a lot of old stuff simply because the new stuff isn’t satisfying me.
MH: I know what you mean. I think it’s the same for a lot of people. I think it’s partly because music’s just not saying anything these days. You listen to Marvin Gaye’s What’s Going On and it’s this amazing piece of music. And it’s anti-war as well, it has a political message. There’s nothing like that today. I love Missy Elliot for example. But she’s saying absolutely nothing. “Get Yr Freak On”. What is that? At a time when America’s becoming a new empire and using force around the world, you have a large and influential part of American culture just talking about money and all that kind of stuff. I don’t think that’s very useful or very satisfying for the listener.
PM: In the context of all of that, what do you think of the Dixie-chick scenario that's played out in the last week?
MH: Um, I didn't know anything about that until...I've done a couple of interviews this morning, and someone, someone was telling me about that. And I think it...I mean, fair play to them. Good for them for saying something, and they should carry on saying it.
PM: But then they apologised.
MH: Oh, did they?
PM: Yeah, I, I've kind of presumably, yeah, no, they apologise and people are burning their CDs and all kinds of shit.
MH: Uh, it's pathetic. It's really pathetic. I mean, America renaming French fries freedom fries because of the French and all that.
PM: Really! I didn't know that.
MH: Yeah. It's absolutely disgusting. I mean, really! For a country that's supposedly about freedom of speech and freedom of ideas, it's just like, that's just that goes against the most basic principle.
PM: Yeah.
MH: I mean, how you can criticise people for not wanting to go to war, when war should be the last resort of any civilised society, it's beyond me.
PM: OK, I've got a few last questions to wind down with. I want to quickly ask you about remixing. Because in terms of not using existing sounds, how do you feel about remixing other people's work?
MH: Well, that's a different sort of genre, really. It's a different kind of process, you know. It's a whole different way of working. Someone else has chosen the song, they've written the lyrics, they've done the melody, they've chosen the sounds. So, all in all, like, you're coming in at quite a late stage, really. And, um, I mean, this is...it's really my way of paying the bills, actually! I enjoy the sort of musical dialogue that exists. But, but at the same time, it is a way of me being able to fund my other projects and do other things that I want.
PM: OK, cool. Who have you most enjoyed working with out of all the kind of people that you've worked with and remixed and so on?
MH: I've just finished a big band album and I've worked with Arto Lindsay. He was someone who I thought was amazing. But in terms of remixing, I always liked doing Moloko. I've just done another one from Moloko, that'd be like the fifth time I've remixed Moloko. And I just really like the parts that they sent me, and I always find that there's room for me to exercise my own visions in it, you know.
PM: How long are you going to be in South Africa for?
MH: Uh, just a couple of days because I've got gigs on either side, so unfortunately it's just a quick visit.
PM: OK. Sadly I won't be seeing you. I'm stuck in Durban. But have a great time and I'll see you one day.
MH: OK. Smashing!
PM: OK! Thank you very much. Cheers.
This interview was first published in excerpt form in 'The Independent on Saturday'.
